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steve yeager Wed, 12/31/2008 - 15:35

i love having the day off to mess with this stuff

cool insight tony

(keeping with your root key F) i hear the progression working, and resolving - mainly abecause the Ab and Eb on the second chord (Ab maj 7 or 6th ) want to pull out to G and E of the C chord

you could convolude this into it really being a ii v l

d-7 , g7 alt to c

in your case the F is functioning as relative major of D-

that's another way to see/hear it

Steve Yeager
http://www.steveyeager.com

tonymiceli Wed, 12/31/2008 - 16:29

In reply to by steve yeager

that's what i thought, it all does resolve doesn't it? The Ab and the Eb! isn't that cool???

do you see it as F maj to F min to see?

yeah the ii V I thing is really cool. coltrane must have had a ball with all this.

s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

tjaco Wed, 12/31/2008 - 21:10

In reply to by tonymiceli

Also you could see the it like this:

F major - Fm6 chord = D m7b5 = II chord of C min. then without the V chord resolving to the C major key..

Anyway. It's a beautiful progression.

You can even use this to play the beginning of Green Dolphin through all twelve keys...

Tjaco Oostdijk - Drums and Vibes
Skype: drumusician
Email: Tjaco@jazz.demon.nl
Website: www.drumusician.com

tonymiceli Thu, 01/01/2009 - 10:20

In reply to by tjaco

first how would you use this to play green dolphin street in 12 keys? explain please.

i always thought that a ii to I cadence is like a IV to I cadence. you agree?

so far to me using this progression is like a IV iv I progression. and then there's the Eb. take F Ab C. so it signifies F Fmi (in a way) C. the Eb in the Ab chord kind of tells us in this context we're going minor, but then we don't. right? you agree? all the info before the C gives us direction (approximate) and then we land where we land. yeah in the key of C but major. something like that.

I always think about what's before my 'home base' and where it's telling me i'm going and then where i wind up.

what do you think?

s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

tjaco Thu, 01/01/2009 - 11:26

In reply to by tonymiceli

Well Green dolphin is just the first four bars, maj to min and then modulate a fourth down. So it's not the whole tune actually..

II to I is definately the same movement as IV to I, i agree

Yep it really sounds like a IV maj - iv min - I cadence. The fact that it goes to major instead a mior is just a wonderful surprise. Like in Night and Day. it has a minor II V that resolves to major. I always love that. Also in You and The Night And The Music.

Great stuff for thought!

Tjaco Oostdijk - Drums and Vibes
Skype: drumusician
Email: Tjaco@jazz.demon.nl
Website: www.drumusician.com

tonymiceli Wed, 12/31/2008 - 16:55

you get this pattern.

F Ab C Eb
G Bb D F
A C E G
B D F# A
C# E G# B
D# F# A# C#

and every other note is a perfect 5th away. so you're going through the cycle of 5ths.

hmmmmm to me then that starts to look like min iv to I through the cycle of 5ths. that's if we take every other major chord and play it's relative minor.

F Fmi C Cmi G Gmi D Dmi A etc.

s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

tonymiceli Wed, 12/31/2008 - 18:20

i'm heading into this scale:

C Eb E G G# B
that fits in right?

s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

tonymiceli Thu, 01/01/2009 - 11:04

In reply to by David Friedman

you must have thought about all this? most musicians have probably thought about the giant steps thing and where to put all this. i never had much success, although the wagner has me thinking. to be honest i know very little about wagner, so this is exciting to check him out and learn.

i was thrilled when i first realized that you can think of modulations in things other than fourths. isn't that what we spend most of our time doing? and then the relationships. but i never made a whole bunch out of it.

maybe this new 'study' will get me somewhere with it. we'll see. i'm so busy, i'll have to work hard to keep this in my mind.

s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

David Friedman Thu, 01/01/2009 - 11:16

In reply to by tonymiceli

Check out the first 4 bars of Tristan, where he uses a half diminished chord on the flatted 2nd degree of the scale to resolve to the 1 dom 7th chord, (the flat fifth degree resolving to the fifth). He does it twice, I think the second time a half step higher...beautiful!

tonymiceli Thu, 01/01/2009 - 12:35

In reply to by David Friedman

ok i'm ignorant of opera really. do you mean the prelude opening?
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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

tonymiceli Thu, 01/01/2009 - 15:49

In reply to by tifoo

is this your world? classical. the prelude is sooo beautiful. he's really flooring me. i need to listen to some non opera stuff also. any suggestions?

and the opening 2 chords. half diminished that passes through the maj 3rd.? so Fmi7b5 to E7? or is that supposed to be a sort of B chord.

this is pretty cool to be able to work on this with you guys.

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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

tonymiceli Thu, 01/01/2009 - 15:52

In reply to by tonymiceli

don't you guys think? look at the jpg tifoo posted above here.

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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

tifoo Fri, 01/02/2009 - 08:38

In reply to by tonymiceli

Ok, I'm not that good in analyse, but I'll try.
First when I listen to it, I hear a Dmin tonal (even if you don't have a real cadence)
that you just miss.
beginning: A F E should go to my ear to Dmin (D) but goes to D# and then to the D.So D# is a rupture (I think the chord is a B7b5) that goes to E7 on the D (the false resolution)no conclusion betwen the 7chords. So I would analyse it as the impossible resolution : the impossible love.It comes also 3 times in a row (bad news...)
So harmony is not to me the lead : melody is, with a lot of long appogiatures (that make the harmony slip).
After this short intro, comes the first leitmotiv, and there the mystery goes deeper...

tonymiceli Fri, 01/02/2009 - 09:12

In reply to by tifoo

that's what this professor said. the two opening chords are about un resolved love. go tifoo!!

OK LET'S ALL ASSIGN CHORDS and WHERE THEY RESOLVE TO OUR MARRAIGES. I'm first.
Ab7 #9 #11 add 13 (definitely some sort of altered chord) resolves to F7 #9 (hence no resolution!). A never ending cascade of minor 3rd progressing dominant chords.

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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

tifoo Fri, 01/02/2009 - 09:40

In reply to by tonymiceli

Haha...I knew I should have turn my tongue during 7th wagner's operas before writing these words...
Ok, my chords are a Bb/C that goes to G/F, E/F, F/Eb
I'm not married with 3 childs...a never ending cascade of child's misbehaving.

Marie-Noëlle Fri, 01/02/2009 - 10:15

In reply to by tonymiceli

Wow Tifoo! :o) How old are they?

Tell me, who is this impressive little girl playing mallet on your Youtube vids? I think you really should post it! She's awesome!

tifoo Fri, 01/02/2009 - 11:10

In reply to by tonymiceli

The girl on the vids MN is talking about is one of my student,Siham, I guess.
her first year :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvUeISyVlDk
her second year :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDViXLa4paM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv62rO2KxJI
(both videos were connected)

another video (one of a student called Camille playing a Manieri solo :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5magDqCV5U
I made a playback with pro tools, and was playing the drums at the same time)

About "Skinny" kids, they are 7 (Léo) 4 (Nathan) and 0,4 (Nina)

Marie-Noëlle Fri, 01/02/2009 - 12:04

In reply to by tifoo

All this is very impressive Tifoo!!

I love Siham second video: she's irresistible!
And Camille is awesome too! You must be a very good teacher! :o)
So you're teaching in Alfortville?

And congrats on the "skinny trio"... That's a huge job, a lot of noise, and you only started it! Is Leo playing? (Btw, same age as Florian!)

Wow!

David Friedman Thu, 01/01/2009 - 16:21

In reply to by tonymiceli

It's the overture. I wish I could sing it for you!!! It's one of my favorite musical examples of ANYTHING!!!!!! It's really beautiful where, as I said(proabably not that clearly!) the dom.7th goes from b5 to the fifth, stays dominant but sounds like the perfect resolution to the one chord! I use this in my teaching, as well as the spot in the Egmont overture by Beethoven, where te entire bass section plays a I VI II V progression with the appropriates neighboring tones, (F Eb D F# G Db C E) repeating it till the upper strings play the melody. It's a jazz bass line with an incredibly hip melody over it! OOps! I think I got off the subject of Wagner's "Tristan"!....Oh, well.......

David Friedman Fri, 01/02/2009 - 04:50

In reply to by David Friedman

Sorry Tony. Of course it's the prelude. I've always called it the overture for some reason.

tonymiceli Fri, 01/02/2009 - 07:33

In reply to by David Friedman

that's hysterical. the beethoven bass line. it's like that what all the players play over a turn around. ha ha ha ha ha and beethoven did it almost 200 years ago.

that's so great!

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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

ed saindon Thu, 01/01/2009 - 15:34

Hi Tony,

Thanks. This is really good material for exploration. There's a book that I was into a long time ago which addresses some of these harmonic concepts. It's called 20th Century Harmony by Vincent Persichetti. It covers some interesting harmonic concepts of the 20th century composers that we can use, adapt and alter for our own use.
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Ed Saindon
http://www.edsaindon.com
Check out my cds: http://micelimusic.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=24_4

tonymiceli Thu, 01/01/2009 - 15:46

In reply to by ed saindon

i think i might have that book. i remember buying it, but never getting into it. maybe i should check it out. i know it's THE of the harmony books.

what do you think of this? modulating like that, imposing those ideas.

i'm spending time listening to the opera and then practicing tunes and things and thinking where this would all go.

i cam up with a version of green dolphin street that i should try on one of the vibe hangs. might sound good might not, but it's interesting to me.

since we play a lot without chordal players we can really incorporate these sounds. where as horn players might not be able to as easily. i believe in intent. if the piano player is playing a sound then it's always difficult for me to impose sounds on top of that unless they're an extension somehow. know what i mean? some times i deliberately lay off comping so the horn player can add some new stuff to the tune that we're building. i guess all the pros do that right?

but playing without the chord player or one that listens and will play sparingly when he knows there might be a detour ahead gives me opportunities.

but i'm curious what the other pros think about all this. ed, i know you must have delved into it. and of course dave and i'm sure joe!

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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

ed saindon Thu, 01/01/2009 - 17:14

In reply to by tonymiceli

Tony,

All great ideas that we can use for improvisation and composition. A lot of my listening is in the classical vein from all periods. I can cite so many examples of jazz players being influenced by the classical composers. Brad Mehldau and Brahms comes to mind. You can hear it in Brad's compositions. I know Richie Bierach and Dave Liebman have been influenced by many of the 20th century composers. Composers like Debussy and Ravel were big influences on the major jazz players. Some of the chords and progressions those composers used were very deep and created such strong emotion. It's definitely worth checking out for ideas and sources of inspiration. With that in mind, I'm heading back to the shed now.

Ed
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Ed Saindon
http://www.edsaindon.com
Check out my cds: http://micelimusic.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=24_4

tonymiceli Thu, 01/01/2009 - 18:30

In reply to by ed saindon

i got into stravinski with the piano scores to the ballets. and have a lot of piano music of debussy and ravel. back in the day i was really into studying all that.

richie beirach, he's amazing and really took harmony pretty far.

i was playing through all this tonight but then i started playing along with the new charlie haden cd which is the exact opposite. beautiful folk music.

well anyway, wagner has got me inspired into thinking about modulating in thirds so i'm in it for the moment. i think i've found a couple new things. we'll seel

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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

tonymiceli Thu, 01/01/2009 - 16:14

well then all this third stuff fits easily. but what about tonal centers, resolved chords.

i was playing this and it was cool.

C E G C
C Eb Ab B
C E G B

that was interesting. the passing chord is cool. Ab/C with a B or whatever that is.

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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

Vaggelis Fri, 02/19/2010 - 05:52

Fascinating!

In my mind,I analysed it like this:If you take Ab as chord IV of Eb tonality,B7(minor 3rd,to the Ab chord)wants to resolve to EMAJ(V-I),pointing to E major tonality.And so it doesn't!It "sideslips" to the tonic of Eb.This is based on(I think...)the concept of the Neapolitan sixth,one of Beethoven's favorite tricks!(Wayne Shorter's TOO!!)

There is a beautiful book,called:"The Unanswered question-six Talks at Harvard".by the great Leonard Bernstein(Harvard University Press 1976).He gives some incredibly valuable lectures on musical form and semantics,and he stresses a great deal on the harmonic ingenuity of this particular composition.A great read indeed,check it out.

Yes!Wagner was great,not the most laid back guy you can meet,but he knew music:)

http://www.myspace.com/vaggelisparaskevaidis

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