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© 2006-2012
Light model for traveling
Dear everybody,
First of all, thank you all for contributing to this wonderful site! I´m new here, looking forward for exchange experiences and inspiration in the years to come.
My question for you today is the following:
I´m looking for a very light vibraphone for traveling, also by plane. At the moment, I have a musser M-48, and although I love it´s sound, I spend too much time mounting and unmounting it, and after every gig, I´m exsausted, not from the playing, but from carrying. If I want to take it on a plane, I´d have to pay so much overweight, not to mention the carrying..
So, do any of you have a suggestions on an acoustic Vibraphone with motor, that´s light enought to bring on a plane without paying too much overweight? It also has to be easy to mount/unmount. I guess there aren´t any real good alternatives to this, and that I might have to do some serious compromizes, concerning for instance the sound.
Some of the old Deagans look light, and I guess I´ll love their sound, but I fear they wouldn´t make on the hard touring road..
Thank you for checking in, I do apprechiate any answers.
All the best to you all,
Karl Ivar Refseth (Berlin)
Car!!!
I can't believe how many posts there are on this topic! I'm not saying things can't be improved, but I have an M55 and a car, and relatively few problems. I play in NYC and Philly all the time. I'm not saying there's not pain in the ass situations, but all things considered, I can literally double park, unpack, garge my car, set up, and be done everything in 30 minutes. I don't think that's too bad, it's a damn vibraphone, they're huge!!! I'm kind of kidding too though, believe me, I hope they make an inflatable vibraphone, but let's face it, there is NO easy way!!! You either need to spend alot of money on a car or cab rides in order to gig on this instrument in my opinion, bottom line, no easy way.
quite a thread here...
Amazing to see how many are chiming in on this discussion. I think every vibes players has searched for the ideal traveling instrument. Hats off to Nico for devoting himself to the task of building a better vibraphone. I agree with Tony on an earlier post, the way to sell a new set of vibes is to get them out there to the players. It's hard to ask a beginning player to buy an instrument which they cant see or play on because none exist in their area. I'm eager to see one of Nico's instruments, they look amazing. But I'm a player who has lived in either New York, Los Angeles, or San Francisco for the last ten years and have never come across one to play on. Thats a big reason why Musser is still the most popular, there all over the place and you know what you're getting even if they dont have one down at your local music store.
My uncle who restores vintage Porsche race cars for a living actually built a frame for my vibes, completely out of aluminum using the existing rails, bars and resonators. He encountered a lot of the issues I'm sure Nico has been dealing with for years. It came out great, its sturdy, all packs up and is very light. However, its still very large. Also, the resonators and bars make up a considerable amount of weight, so even if you get the frame very light, you still have that to contend with. The whole discussion about the cost of manufacturing things, I completely agree with Nico on. Granted, my uncle is not a vibraphone manufaturer (though he is a really brilliant craftsman) he told me that he would never built another vibes frame if someone paid him to because it took a lot of time, work, and money to develop the prototype. Plus, if Nico spends years developing the best vibraphone, he deserves to clear some profit like anyone else...
I've traveled in Asia and gotten into tiny cabs with a m-48. Its a pain in the ass to set up, but it is the easiest to travel with because you can fit it all into a couple suitcases. My 2 cents; I think a higher end version of a similar design would be worthwhile. The M-48 just seems a little cheap and flimsy to me.
Lastly, I also agree with whats been said about the narrow bar instruments. Yes, its nice to have a smaller keybed to move, but... if you play four mallets and comp as I do, the narrow bar vibes just dont seem to cut it. There isn't enough of the low end meatiness in the bottom octave for comping...for me at least.
-Tyler
How cool!
How cool Tyler!! Is your vibes finished? Could we see it? Man that would be really great! Wouldn't you like to make a post with pictures? Wow!
- M
Dream Vibe
Was thinking a lot about this, due to all the great recent info about the Carbonvibe, which I had been anxiously awaiting. This instrument looks amazing, and Nico and his company did an incredible job. But for me, I don't think it is going to be the ultra transportable vibe I have been waiting for. So figured that I'd try to come up with some ideas for what that actually is.
Must haves:
1. full-size, great sounding bars
2. real resonators & fans
3. strong, sturdy frame that packs as small and light as possible
4. the bars must come off, because just by themselves, they are already too heavy!
5. everything must work all the time! - like motors and damper pedals, regardless of how fast you gotta set-up, or how strange the voltage in the club is.
I think the YV-3710 & M48 are the only things that come close right now. But both are pretty heavy, and come apart into too many small parts.
Since I drag around a YV-3710, thought I would start with what I feel are its deficits:
1. Although the frame is professional and sturdy, it is way too heavy. Same for the resonators. There's gotta be a lighter material, that doesn't costs a fortune...?
2. The pedal crossbar has a ridiculous clamp thing that attaches the sections - this is cumbersome, and easy to put together the wrong way which means you need to take the frame apart again. Ugh!
3. The whole damper bar comes out, and needs to be properly set with a giant spring thing that is pretty delicate. Right now, mine is broken.
4. The whole motor comes off and needs to be properly installed each time, then attached to the fan pulleys with geared belts. These can be hard to get on, and will fall off if things aren't perfectly straight. Oy!
Wish list:
1. A frame keybed that breaks into 3 sections, instead of 4 like the YV3710. The center section should have an entirely enclosed pedal and motor mechanism. No springs or pulleys - the resonator fan ends simply could have a tip that inserts into a sealed gear mechanism, which works right every time. Even better, there could be a 3-prong standard power plug connector right on the end of the frame. No external transformers.
2. If the footpedal crossbar folds down, it must go right back together - like with a hinge and a sleeve. It needs to take 2 seconds to assemble, not 5 minutes.
3. It must use lightweight parts throughout. Wood and steel are old materials. I want new materials.
4. It needs elegant, scaled-down design. No bells and whistles, just great sound and simple transportability.
5. Price: The YV3710 is around $3500 street, I think. This hypothetical instrument would sell for under $4500 US.
How many people would buy this instrument? Hmm... David, do you think Yamaha would check out these comments? I feel like maybe they are the only ones who might be able to hit that price point.
Well, it's plain simple
Well,
it's plain simple Steve.
What you want is not possible in this decade. Not in price and not in configuration.
The development of the carbonVibe has costed us roughly 35000 euros, and not taking the patent costs in. Such a simple instrument you're describing would go for at least a minimum of 10k in euros, if not more. You're describing an extreme difficult model, so my guess is that it would be even fair to say that a more realistic price would be round 16k in euros.
There is only a relative small number of vibists who would travel the way you do, and of those small number of vibists only a fraction would be able to afford such an instrument. Too bad is that the market who needs this kind of model the most, is also the market that suffers with badly paid gigs.
BTW, talking with several jazz vibists, the majority preferred a one-piece keybed ISO the traveller models like the M48 and YV3710. This is one of the reasons we have choosen for the current design. At this moment we're doing one traveller model as a custom project, but at extreme costs (way more the customer is paying for ;-) ). Considering the investment we've done with the carbonVibe, it is unlikely that we are going to get this traveller model into our product line the upcoming years. Ofcourse we're always there for custom ordering, but at prices way higher than $4500.
With the carbonVibe we're aiming for widening the market for vibes. At this moment the market (in terms of music) is either the classical percusionist and the jazz-vibist. We wanted to make a vibe that modernizes the instrument making it more attractive for new type of musician, same as what happened decades ago with the electric guitar and the digital piano.
Doing this all and keep the weight reasonable, the only way to get it done was using the carbon fiber. But even that material has it's limits. Forget all the stories that they're able to make carbon fiber bikes, so you can use the material for vibes too. Not true.
Forces in a bike are completely differend from those in a vibe. Carbon fiber is extreme strong lengthwise, but vulnarable sidewise. Forces on the vibe are 90 degrees differend from those on a bike.
BTW, the electric Yamaha marimba Norbert is talking about was a Yamaha custom instrument with a price of over 30k euros. A design I love!!!
Nico
buying a van
Nico, since we both own and play Hammond organs, I've never really figured out why vibes players just don't do what organ players do - which is to buy a van and just leave the instrument assembled. Now of course I realize that this is problematic (if not impossible) in New York City and other comparable cities where subways and taxis are the preferred mode of transport, but I would tend to think that it's simply more cost-effective to invest that extra expense into a vehicle. When I was playing a lot, I think I broke down my Provibe once or twice over the course of 10 years when I encountered steps, and all I needed to move the instrument assembled was a set of Piper M-Braces. Regarding New York, I feel your pain but the vast majority of vibes players out there will never live in New York so I think a valid point is made that a manufacturer not only has to look at the potential market, but in this case drastically restrict that market to a few cities where the benefit to the customer would even be worth the extra investment.
I'm not denigrating Steve's points at all as a New Yorker, but rather just saying that I feel that Nico has provided a reality check as to the overall practicality to 99% of the potential market.
Exactly. You got my
Exactly.
You got my point.
It's a joy travelling with a vibe, when you're used to transporting a hammond with leslie ;-)
Nico
But still...
Nico,
I'm sure you are right about everything. You are definitely the man... and the care and dedication you put into the Carbonvibe and all your instruments is obvious. I still do look forward to checking out all the innovations you have made. I am also quite aware that what drives the market for vibe manufacturing are schools and universities and marching bands, not jazz artists. But I am pretty surprised that a majority of pro players you interviewed wanted to keep the keybed whole. I know Gary, who has logged more miles than anyone, favors his M48. I used to have an M55, and I remember gigs where my arms felt like spaghetti and I could barely play after loading and setting up. I had a softbag with a shoulder strap, too. But I still have back problems to this day that I attribute to hauling that thing around. If the keybed does not break smaller, your transportation options get very limited. You can't get it in a cab or probably on an airplane (even tho I have never cabbed with a vibe, I always had a car). Hauling a fullsize keybed is something I'll never do again, it is a total deal-breaker. Even though the YV3710 can be a drag to set-up, I vastly prefer the design (by the way, Tyler, the Yamaha does not feel at all flimsy or cheap).
John is totally right that the way to go is to keep the instrument whole and have a very large vehicle. But then there are those issues with stairs.... And I absolutely do not wanna drive a van (or even have to borrow my wife's SUV) because I play the vibes - I make enough sacrifices for this blasted instrument!
In this age, we have electric cars and iPads and earthquake resistant skyscrapers. Somebody's gotta be able to make a vibe that sounds good, is very lightweight, and sets-up fast... AND can sell!
portable vibes
i dig the m55 for travelling around the city. steve you need a rock and roller. (you have one?)
and thanks to gary for the m48. he did it for us!
i think that someone is going to make a better lighter affordable/portable instrument (i hope it's nico). i believe then the pros will be talking about this instrument and excited and that will lead to sales. i think nico just needs to get some bread back for his R&D and then he'll filer things down and come up with something.
i know i sell instruments, people ask me all the time for my opinion, and i'm sure it's the same with all the pros on here. every student i meet says the same thing. what instrument do you play and what sticks do you like.
i know i've sold a few mussers because i had it on the gig. and now a days with internet video, i would REALLY think companies would want their logos and instruments in the hands of the pros. you can play a gig now and someone vids it on their little cam, puts it on the site and then there are 10,000 hits. that counts and that is branding an instrument. this is what all big companies do. it means a lot to coke to have their logo on a sports game or concert.
yeah yeah yeah, the vibe world is small, but those principals still apply, just not in the millions! there are two ways to sell instruments it seems like these days.
1. colleges are show rooms for instruments. the students are playing on them.
(but when they ask a pro, which they usually do, the pro talks about things like portability.)
2. what pros play on. what they choose for their clinics and what they record with. what's visible. if i walk into a room (let alone someone like burton or mainieri) and there are several instruments there, and i pick one to play. every student has taken note of that, and that weighs heavily on them.
back to colleges, students do have to move instruments around. so sooner or later they will discuss portability.
this is a good discussion and i'm glad we have nico's attention. i'm sure there are a few other manufacturers on here as well.
Wish I could agree
I wish I could agree, but it just doesn't fly in today's world.
The problem with the argument that prospective customers would buy what the pros play doesn't fly because the vibraphone pros only play jazz. There are no celebrity rock, pop, classical, or hip-hop vibes players, and the very few that have crossed over to pop are basically jazz guys moonlighting. The public has voted on jazz (NARAS just eliminated two jazz catagories from the Grammys), so when you combine the extremely limited exposure of jazz to a potential market combined with the perception that vibes is a "jazz instrument" - well, it ain't the 1960s anymore.
I think the future of gigging mallet instruments is going to be in sampler technology, and I say that based on the direction I see in both music and music technology.
now.....
if you had pickups on the bars you wouldn't have to bring the resonators.
wow you want it to pack up small and not be a lot of pieces? that's just not fair!! :-)
an m48 without the motor is even lighter huh?
i don't know about the yamaha. that really breaks down well? like the m48?
again, (i'll say it a million times) who ever beats the m55 and m48 will have a winner here. the way to sell instruments is to get the pros playing them. (i'm hoping nico will read this).
i like the no bells and whistles especially for moving around!
also, i just don't dig the yamaha pedals. i struggle with them, they move and change height at least on the ones i've played.
Ha Ha!
Tony,
The reason that Yamaha pedal moved and changed height on you is that someone assembled it backwards! Just like I was talking about - this is what happens when the pedal goes together wrong. Really dumb. Assembly should be foolproof!
Pickups won't replace resonators for me. Although, I will say that I went to see Joe Locke at Dizzy's a few months ago, and his VPB pickups sounded great - very natural! But for me, a vibe is not a vibe without resonators. It's like a piano without a soundboard...thats a harp!
My desire for an enclosed center section would mean that is a pretty large section. But if it isn't too heavy, that's cool. Worth it for all that messy stuff to be hidden. For me the key is LIGHT WEIGHT and SIMPLE ASSEMBLY. As long as the sections all can fit into an average sedan, I think size can be a compromise. Also, if each bag can stay smaller than a set of golf clubs or a pair of skis, air travel is not unreasonable.
just to keep the convo
just to keep the convo rolling...
at the last jam session I went to I was just thinking that maybe I should just get some smaller set like the one nighter or some old jenco or something specifically for jam sessions. I'd be able to do more of them and they might be more fun since it wouldn't involve lugging the regular size instrument around.
- www.mikepinto.net
vibes-carpenter Jim McCarthy
The Canedy plane is amazing
If I see this & think "vibes/marimba", what comes to mind is of course the space-ship-like 4-oct midi marimba by Yamaha apparently made for and played only by Sinske (Shinsuke Ishihara) http://sinske.jp/pg30.html
Somewhere at min 2:40 U can see the thing...[here] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGxzfw_Ew20
Something completely different:
-Jim McCarthy looks like he's not around VW...
I wonder, if anybody knows/tried or bought these promising do-it-yourself kits.
"Vibraphone, Marimba and Xylophone Building E-Books from Jim McCarthy"
http://www.buildavibraphone.com/get_vibraphone_plans.html
Thanks, all of you! +new ideas
Dear everybody,
thank you very much for great comments and ideas. Also funny with the manufacturing cocts discussion in the middle of it... :) Anyway, it´s very clear that it still is a lot of research to be done here, and I´m very happy to have this forum, so we can exchange our ideas in order to reach our common goal much quicker.
It´s the two factors- weight v.s. sound.
If we like to fly with our instruments, it´s in most cases either overweight, or no single cases over 20kg. Anyway, it still is a lot to carry in adition to the regular luggage.
If I understand it right, many of you are using pickups to compensate for a more narrow sound of more lightweight models. In my acoustic jazz-world, I find the sound of a full sized 100% acoustic modell much better than a sound supported by pickups. –But maybe it´s the best compromise at the moment? However, using a pickup, also demands an amp, and for some, also proper signal processing equipment, which also may cost some weight, and if not, loooots of experimenting, and also money…. Anyway- I guess borrowing an amp from venues should be possible, but then, you also never know how your sound will be.
At the moment, I´m concidering investing in a light weight traveling modell, maybe Nicos option. This means saving money for another year or more... In the meantime, I´ll stay with my M48, but exchange the cases with bags, in order to reduce weight. (I already got a bag for my bars from Percussion Bags (Markus Heske), and I´m very happy with this.). Although the M48 takes long time to mount/unmount, it´s a great that it fits into any car, and easily can be brought on the train, and also (believe it or not) the bicycle. Thanks, Gary!! It´s also a trick to raise your band members to help mounting/unmounting the M48- I´m working on it.. Regarding flights, I´ll either borrow vibes for these ocations, or simply skip the gig, if the overweight isn´t payable, awaiting the light weight modell….
I´d like to create to new posts in order to try to find the best possible traveling sollution, before we all are millionares: ☺☺
-”The frame share collective” -Would love to hear your opinions here.
-”How do you travel?” I´m very curious to hear about how you guys travel with your equipment, and hope all the different sollutions and ideas can contribute to better traveling conditions for all of us.
All the best to you all!!!!
Karl Ivar
Were going to try and do it
This is a request for specifications.
If you have a request for this light weight frame please email me via my profile.
We don't care how rediculous you think the request may be we want to hear about it.
The more specific the request the better.
ex. It should weigh less than 50 lbs. as opposed to it should be really light.
We're excited about this but without your input we would just be building a possibly useless thing.
tia,
Todd Canedy
what about a wish list here?
toddc,
what about making a *new* post here and having everyone put there 'wish' list here so we can all see and discuss??
cu
tony
------------------------
Tony Miceli
www.tonymiceli.com (new)
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
http://www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Its easier for me to manage
Its easier for me to manage project communications in Outlook. So email works best for me. Also if I can't get online for some reason I don't have access to information I need.
It's also easier to get email to a database as opposed to the copy and paste process I'd have to go through from an online forum.
But if you would like a new area for this project I'm fine with it. Open discussion is great too :)
-Todd
traveler dream vibe
Karl, maybe you should look at the thread on Nico's new motor system that developed into a lot of back and forth on this subject. The easiest vibraphone that I own that gets close to reasonable for travel is a 1973 Musser 1-niter, because of it's very light weight and very small size. I never remove the bars, and I can literally put this thing under my arm and walk down the block or wherever. The aluminum square tube used for the frame is very light, as are the resonators. I have used this instrument acoustically w/mics and in small venues/stages with non-electric bands it has worked out fine. Rumor has it that Stefon Harris used 1-niters for trips to Europe earlier on in his career. If you are a 2 mallet player who uses med-hard/hard mallets, this axe is (IMO) absolutely fine as-is, you will project like Lionel Hampton. 4 mallets with comping - you need pickups. I assume the sound would be great as I have a Musser small bar kelon marimba with pickups and that sounds great. If anyone were to manufacture such as axe and I had design input, I would change the one-size bars on a 1-niter to the next increment larger at about middle C(3), and take it down to E2 which of course every modern vibraphone should have. With pickups, you do not need the resonators. There are even ways of easily repairing a broken pickup right on the gig, should something happen. However if the pickups are done the right way, you should have no problems. I have a Deagan portable axe with pickups, have only lost (1) in 31 years of heavy use, and that incident would not have happened if I had been there to intervene, so - no pickups lost in normal use or playing, or moving on the Deagan. The Deagan's downfall for traveling is the weight of the frame and legs, and the size, in that order.
Anyway - the Dream Vibe - my opinion, best and easiest if the bars never come off and pickups are standard. I have flown the one-niter in the past (it is small enough) and paid oversize but it was worth it. However, if the frame folded and unhooked in the middle, and had a 2-part damper bar and 2-part pedal assembly, the size could be brought down to regular suitcase specs and (I think) it could all be fit into 2 cases, sans resonators.
KAT notes: Because I have to be portable and available at non-local Folk Festivals (that is really where you get your ass kicked, all those mandolin players just running free) I have recently purchased a Mallet Kat 2 octave w/ a 1-octave expander. With this I can fly easily, run from stage to stage, setup is fast, and I get to play with ensembles that I normally would not be able to. It all fits into a small easy case, with it's pedals and synth sound source. It is not a vibraphone, but I would rather be able to perform than not perform at all. No one has ever complained about samples/synth mixed in with the voices and string instruments, etc. With new laptop based samplers such as Kontact, and using features built into the Kat (it is really smart), you could get a realistic feeling vibraphone sound and also have bowed (or any other) sounds available immediately by using a mute technique on the Kat.
Food for thought. Thanks to Marie for keeping me posted! Thanks Nico for entertaining the idea. Thanks Tony for this forum.
and thanks for reading
Ed
Foam core and fiberglass
My brother built an experimental airplane out of foam core and fiberglass.
Its incredibly strong and light weight.
http://www.cozymkiv.com
I bet with the right prodding he would build a vibraphone frame.
Not sure how to tackle the resonators.
what a family
tell me more about your family. you guys seem pretty incredible. that plane looks amazing.
would he REALLY build a light weight frame?
if HE DID, and HE LENT IT TO ME, I WOULD DRIVE OUT THERE, I WOULD BRING IT BACK TO PHILLY AND SHOOT VIDEO AND PUBLICIZE IT. i would love it if your brother showed all the vibe makers where it's at!!!!
with the right prodding, what does he need? oh man talk him into it!!
i bet some of the heavy cats (like the one below this post) would buy this frame. that would mean we could transport it on a plane if it was that cheap. oh man!!
(take that nico!!!! :-))
------------------------
Tony Miceli
www.tonymiceli.com (new)
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
http://www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
OK, I'm gonna do it
Get me 5 buyers, and I'll do it.
Price range probably starting at 6K (euros). This would never cover the initial development costs, but since every vibist wants this, I should sell hundreds, so in the end the development costs would be covered, right?
Am I serious? If there are 5 garantueed buyers, I am.
5 buyers is what I definitelly need to get starting.
We have started some on this route already last year, but put it into the fridge.
Basically: "put your money where your mouth is" ;-)
Nico
vanderPlas Baileo Percussion Instruments
www.vanderplasbaileo.com
Money, Mouth, Where it is?
Whewweee thats sounds like a challenge if I ever heard one.
Let the games begin :)
-Todd
2000 bucks
man if you can make a good frame for under 2 grand. i think you win!!
my 2 cents. make it for graduated musser bars.
i hate to butt heads with ed, but i would dread playing a one nighter, or small bars. everybody should chime in though.
but if you made the ultimate frame for an affordable price, i bet a lot of the pros on this site would be on it.
just make it assemble very very quickly.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
www.tonymiceli.com (new)
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
http://www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
For me it is more
For me it is more interesting if we'd make a complete vibe, at least to start with. Development is expensive, and by doing a complete vibe it is the best way to finance it. So sell the musser, or change 5 initial buyers to 15 if we do the frames only.
A professional made frame under 2K is unlikely. The market is too small for that so it will be difficult to have the development costs covered.
BTW, for me this is not a competition. If any one else is doing this too, I'm fine,
Plan is to start with a gigVibe (or M55) style vibe, so with a one piece keybed. Modular architecture, with a base price for a basic instrument and than add features like the pickups, HDS, type of motor system, etc. I'm looking into the possibilities for a traveller model, but I have really strong doubts in getting such a model stable.
@Ed. Pretty sure you meant the same as me, but to be sure: I mentioned the weight difference between graduate width and narrow bars isn't that much. In both cases it is the bars that have the weight that can't be reduced (without affecting sound).
Ergo: it is either 5 garantueed initial buyers if we do the complete vibes first, or 15 garantueed initial buyers if we do the frames first.
Anyone yet?
Nico
vanderPlas Baileo Percussion Instruments
www.vanderplasbaileo.com
bar size question for Nico
Hi Nico
I understand why you say bar sizes cannot be reduced w/o affecting the sound for an all-acoustic axe. What would you say about the sound of reduced bar sizes that are destined for pickups only? You know what I say...but I am curious what you say.
thanks!
Ed
I agree with you here. I've
I agree with you here. I've done it in the past with a small Deagan 510 with really narrow bars. Added the pickups which result a perfect small gigging instrument. Weight was still huge tho, as we used the regular frame and keybed at that time ( I think there is a photo here somewhere of that instrument).
Nico
vanderPlas Baileo Percussion Instruments
www.vanderplasbaileo.com
Great!
I am happy to hear that our experiences are the same, Nico. The prohibitive aspect of my Deagan graduated bar vibes is the weight of the frame (heavy wood) and legs (steel) and that the instrument will not come apart into halves. I think that with the type of frame you design with no extra space on the ends, even if with simple aluminum tube, the vibe would be small enough and light enough to fly as baggage, that is the key (for me). Thank you!
serious?
nico, you want me to sell my 2 vibes (musser m55 + studio 49) otherwise i can´t afford 6000€, watching the site everyday without any chance to play gigs or practice, because no more vibes to play on and wait 6 months or more for the development of my dream vibes?
i mean what should i do in the meantime? collecting stamps?
don´t take that too serious :)
it´s just the problem...most of us don´t have 6000 € left...so we have to sell other instruments to afford a new one. so we cant promise to buy a new one, since it is out for sell and we sold our old ones. personally i use the 2 vibes mostley because of the weight. i got one for practice at home and one at the music shool, which i use for gigs mostley. i live on the 4th floor and to leave the vibes in the cases in the basement after a gig is really nice. i could live with only one vibe if it would sound like the musser and has the same features (easy setup) but has much less weight! so that i can carry it to the 4th floor till i am 80 years old by my own!
A wise man explained to me a
A wise man explained to me a couple of years ago: "It's your problem to find the solutions when making your instruments. Let the customer then have the problem to finding the solutions to afford them".
@Tony.
The price we're charging for our products is a fair prices, based on material, development costs,labour and a small bit of profit (I don't drive a mercedes yet, and don't even own a vibe, so profit isn't as high as it should be).
Value of a handcrafted product is based on the above, while the added profit is based on how valuable a product in the market is. In other words, 2k for a frame is an illusion, I wish it was possible, and it is possible if I only charge material. But then I'm out of business after the first frame.
I was wondering: If I buy a CD, why do I have to pay $10-15, while the material costs are only $1 at most, and while every CD is just a copy of a master CD.
Great idea: just lower the CDprices to $2, which is still double the material costs, and which is well affordable for anyone. Pretty sure lots of people will buy the CD.
Nonsense, right?!? We all know why the CD costs what it costs.
Now copy and paste this to manufacturing, and try to imagine why it is not always possible to manufacture something for a price that a customer rather wants to pay, which naturally is always as low as possible.
A bit cynical but true, haha,
;-)
Nico
vanderPlas Baileo Percussion Instruments
www.vanderplasbaileo.com
Customers determine sales price not the manufacturer
IMHO...
Cost world thinking is very deceptive. We all suffer from tunnel wisdom because we have a hard time finding or even pursuing the right question.
Regarding the 2$ CD:
Some people can't even give away the CD because the CD is not the product.
As in:
"If you think the drummers job is to keep time try buying a watch and see how that works for ya." - Todd Canedy
There is a solution to the 2K frame.
We just have to be diligent and persitant.
So I'll peristantly nag about it and some engineering genius will diligently pursue the solution:)
-Todd
yes
this is what i don't get.
first off the money from the 15 dollar cd goes to the fuckin greedy record company! a cd should cost 7 bucks, esp if it costs 1 to make.
ok..... onward
we should be able to make a frame that costs under 2 grand. the only problem are the resonators and the pedal. man make the frame and we'll figure out the bars.
i bet if your bro made the frame, a company, would buy it, just like they did with the piper vibes or gary's traveller.
i get it, the frame is under 2 grand but the bars will cost another 2 grand.
but i have enough sets, i need a light portable frame. save money on the plane if i want to bring it, etc. etc.
if your bro can make an f-n plane that's light, then he can make the frame.
nico, yeah i get it about the money. but musser sells a lot of m-55's because they sound good and they're very portable. your bars are the best i've ever heard, bar (ha ha) none. but an m-55 is the complete package for me when i consider working.. and if someone could make a design and knock a grand off that m-55 this is getting really good.
when i get rich playing the vibes, i'll have your whole line of vibes in my house!!!
actually, my fantasy is to get the blue bars and resonators for my m-55!!!
nico's axe with the blue bars was heaven. it sounded like the most beautiful instrument i've ever played. so let me go on record about that.
but why there's not a cheap and light frame i'll never understand. well i do, according to nico it's because we won't spend the money. and there's not enough of us.
so, let todd's bro take on the challenge. then we buy our axes from nico, musser, yamaha, wherever, and then buy this cheap portable frame. leave that packed up and then travel with the frame!!
now the other site of this, is. most pros i know have more than one instrument. so we are paying money for something.
not counting nico's axe, i have 3 mussers and a mallet kat. so maybe we do spend money, but we need portability on the scale of an m-55 which no one will compete with.
ok just my 2 cents for the sake of conversation and the future of the vibraphone!!
-
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Tony Miceli
www.tonymiceli.com (new)
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
http://www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Ofcourse I completely
Ofcourse I completely disagree, ;-)
Nico
vanderPlas Baileo Percussion Instruments
www.vanderplasbaileo.com
Not really true
Not really true.
Manufacturers don't produce stuff below their manufacturing costs. And if there are no customers willing to pay that lowest possible price any "decent" manufacturer is able to make/sell it for, the manufacturer will take it off the market. You're right if you mean the extra profit/value above the manufacturing costs is determined by the customer. You're also right if by what you're saying means a product doesn't sell if the customer isn't willing to pay that amount for it, and as such is taken off of the market.
There sometimes is also a tunnel vision from the customers' viewpoint. Material costs are only a small part of the whole price setting. How come people do understand that a CD has to cost $10-15 because the musician has created something on that CD, yet do not always understand that a touchable product, which many times is only created with a lot of higher costs than a CD recording, also have a minimum price it can be manufactured for?
Regarding the 2$ CD:
Some people can't even give away the CD because the CD is not the product.
As in:
"If you think the drummers job is to keep time try buying a watch and see how that works for ya." - Todd Caned
Exactly my point! Glad you understood.
The material is not the product, the total package is, and specially when looking at products, this is overlooked many times. Bars aren't just a piece of aluminum. They aren't created for free by gnomes or elves: it takes knowledge to produce them. Or even building frames: it's not just throwing some resin and carbon fibre in a bucket, mix it thoroughly, and you're having a frame. It's pretty much more, where the actual building is only the last part of it.
And same as for recordings on a CD, this is what is to be paid for.
Ofcourse an option is to make a kind of open-source-ish vibe, and have the customer just donate what it is worth for him. But I have a feeling that this won't work out.
BTW, not the proper channel here to discuss this item and in fact I shouldn't discuss it at all. But, I'm carried away too much, haha.
Nico
vanderPlas Baileo Percussion Instruments
www.vanderplasbaileo.com
My apologies
Nico,
Please accept my apologies if I've offended you in any way.
Its obvious your passion drives you on this.
I look at your instruments and dream about owning them.
You are a true craftsman.
Both you and your products are held in the highest esteem.
You're right we should discuss this elsewhere.
I would love to continue the discussion if possible.
Again, please accept my apology.
Sincerely,
Todd Canedy
No need to apologize for
No need to apologize for your opinions, I wasn't offended in any way. The only thing I tried to do was to show my point that there is no difference between the product of a musician and the product of a manufacturer.
I hope I didn't look grumpy ??? At least I tried not to.
I'm bad in online discussions, I'm too pigheaded I guess.
Nico
vanderPlas Baileo Percussion Instruments
www.vanderplasbaileo.com
;o)
You're funny guys! ;o)
my 2 cents as well
In addition to everything Nico has said, I think there is another speculative issue as well. I bought a Deagan Electravibe back in 1976, and the bottom line for me was that I really didn't enjoy playing it at all. There wasn't anything wrong with it, and despite being clumsy to haul I didn't find moving it to be that big of an issue. It was my dream vibe for about a minute, then it was a drag to play because it never felt right. From a keyboard player standpoint, it was like trying to play grand piano on a Yamaha DX7 keyboard - the sound was there, but the feel was lost.
I'll agree with Ed to the extent that playing four mallets isn't a problem with some practice, but I wonder how many people are actually going to be satisfied with that.
This is a real concern
This is a real concern John.
But we'll never know until we try.
Great stuff! More insight like this is needed.
Deagan 76 Elec vib
I agree w/you John. the bars on Deagan's electra were way too small, even for me. My one nighter I can play because I have had years of practice playing the Musser kelon (same bar sizes)on your with FZ. But - the Dream vibe? I would make the bars graduated for sure and of a size that is comfortable with practice. The Deagan bar sizes are great, I think they are even a but wider than musser at the top end (could be wrong). Maybe for the lower octave the size (width) should be in between that of a one-niter and an M-55.?
small bars clarification
Hi Tony -
just to be clear, I am saying of the vibes that I own, the 1-niter is closest to the easily shippable and shlep-able instrument. If it were a new design, I would definitely encourage graduated bars at the low end. Me personally - M55 bars are too big and make no diff with re to pickups, I only work with pickups though. I looked that the Majestic instruments, that is interesting, they get larger at the bottom, but not nearly a vast as those on an M-55 (gag/jab each one requires it's own area code :0). But seriously tribe, due to weight and size issues, I am not even sure if I would encourage Deagan graduated bar sizes for this kind of ultra-traveler vibraphone. I think if M55 bar sizes were used, you would not really acheive that much in terms of size and weight, as the frame and leg parts are the same as the 1-niter, which is so damn lite I am astonished everytime I pick it up. I think that I read Nico saying that there is not that much weight in the bars...? anyway you can butt heads with me any day it is not personal and I do not mind being challenged, at all.
One Love
Ed
uh oh
give us the specs first. i'm seriously thinking of being person number one. although i'd have to take a loan out, i would do it to get the ball rolling.
it has to be light and easy to move around.
meanwhile, toddc, get your bro' to do this. then we'll have some competition!!!
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Tony Miceli
www.tonymiceli.com (new)
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
http://www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
if i had knew before...
well you should have said that before ibought my musser some years ago :)
i paid like 4000 with cases for a used m55, 2000 € more for a new one would have been no problem.
Well?
Sell it!!!!!!
you want it'?
:)
No, but....
Not really, but I bet you wouldn't have problems selling it at a decent price here in Europe.
One of my students just bought a used Musser pro and people are constantly me asking me about buying or selling Mussers.
lol!
lol!
Wow!
Wow!
Its been on our plate already
We've been talking about it because I was so ticked that you can't find a vibraphone for less than 2K.
The bars are tricky. The cost of metal is volatile.
But we may be able to do the frame and resonators.
Your enthusiasm may be just enough of a catalyst to get this going.
No promises....
-Todd
don't worry about the bars
just build the frame so it fits musser bars. we ALL have mussers here in the states.
if it was a good frame, we'd push it and sell it in the vibe store. man under 2k????
wow the light vibe frame race is on!!!!
------------------------
Tony Miceli
www.tonymiceli.com (new)
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
http://www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes